Ep. 2: Snow Flower & the Secret Fan by Lisa See

Pages and Pours

Episode 2

Snow Flower and the Secret Fan by Lisa See

Happy Thursday, everyone! Our newest episode of Pages and Pours features one of my favorite reads from last year: Snow Flower and the Secret Fan. It follows the life of Lily, a woman living in 19th century China who endures many hardships and situations that I think most of us couldn't even imagine having to go through. It's absolutely heart-wrenching and makes for a painfully beautiful read on love, perseverance, and friendship.

Ben has also curated another perfect coffee to go along with this lovely read. We're happy to be featuring Vitruvian Coffee Roasters again this week! You can find them here as well as on Instagram @vitruvian_coffee_roasters.

Find our podcast on Spotify as well as Apple Podcast, Google Podcasts, and more!

And, as always, below you can find a transcript of Episode 2. Enjoy!

Note: The following transcript was created using both a dictation software and hand-typed transcription in an attempt to fully capture everything that was said in this episode of Pages and Pours. Please be aware that there may be some errors because of this! Of course, the full experience of any podcast is best heard in its original audio form, so please make sure to give that a listen if you’re able. But if not, we hope that this transcription still conveys the emotion and fun that went into recording this episode for you! Thank you and enjoy.

[INTRO, HOGAN SPEAKING]

In 19th century China, young Lily’s life is laid out quite strictly before her: to abide by the rigid, sometimes painful traditions that are known to her culture.

Her journey is one of heartache and pain, and through it all—her arranged marriage, the difficulty of motherhood, the tragedies of life and making a place for herself through adversity—Lily finds a way to express joy and love in the secret language known only to women in a time so dominated by men

[JAZZY INTRO MUSIC]

HOGAN

Hi, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Pages and Pours! I’m Hogan the bookworm.

BEN

And I'm Ben the barista!

HOGAN

Today we are going to be discussing the book Snow Flower and the Secret Fan by Lisa See. This is a really, really engaging, sad story of a young woman set in 19th century China. It really delves deep into friendships, hardships, and all things in between.

BEN

Apparently all of Lisa See’s stuff is sad—like, heartbreaking sad.

[laughter]

HOGAN

Yeah, Lisa has quickly become one of my favorite authors. I've read a few of her books over this past year. Snow Flower and the Secret Fan was the first book of hers that I read, and yeah, she really deals with some super real genuine but heartbreaking stories. We’re talking about 19th century China, so I think you can kind of guess the kinds of trials that a young woman would have to go through in that time. And really, Lis is so good at portraying young women’s lives—young Chinese women’s lives and what they go thru and the adversities that they really have to overcome, and she makes them— they’re sad stories, but you really can still relate with these young woman and fall in love with them throughout the length of their trials.

BEN

She does a really good job of creating a character that goes through super sad situations and is still really resilient! Like you said, you really can relate in a way, and you grow attached to them. Like the things they go through become the things you go through, and that’s a good writer! That’s someone who’s able to take you through something to show you something.

HOGAN

Yes!

BEN

And not very many people can do that very well!

HOGAN

Yeah, and the crazy thing for me is that all of the books that I have read of Lisa See’s. they're pretty short and so the fact that she can take you on such a pivotal, amazing journey with these young women in such a short amount of time is really amazing/

BEN

That’s incredible.

HOGAN

Yeah, so you kinda have a little feel of what the story is— So what kind of coffee do you have for us today?

BEN

Yeah! So our coffee today is an Ethiopia Guji and and this is— Ethiopias in my experience, the ones that I have tasted, are usually a more bright, somewhat fruity floral, those kind of things— this one is very tea like. And I thought that would be a good coffee choice for today.

HOGAN

Yeah, that’s perfect!

BEN

We’re talking about a woman in a very very tumultuous culture in a time that really was not favorable to the woman at all/ And it’s a very difficult story about a delicate person, and so I thought the coffee should be delicate flavorful. For this one, I didn’t really have the flavor notes on this. It’s very light and I think that I'm kinda getting more citrus tones from it, and it’s very pleasant. I brewed this on a V60 and did a 16 to 1 ratio of water to coffee. So this is 20 grams of coffee to 321 grams of water. And just right at 3 minutes. So if you are using a V60, you want to kinda take your time with it. It’s a process; you don’t want to rush thru—depending on the coffees you're using. You know, you can do different speeds and things like that and play around with it. V60 for me is a process, it’s very delicate, and it’s something that you don’t do just to get a quick cup of coffee. You do it for the experience. And then you enjoy the coffee. and so this is, I think this is a very good way to plan for the book because we have a very delicate coffee, very tea like and bright in flavor—kinda tangy, actually, which is really nice on the palate—brewed thru a process that has a lot of steps and can’t be rushed, really. And so, I thought that was kinda fitting today.

HOGAN

Yeah, that sounds great!

BEN

This is a coffee provided by Vitruvian Coffee Roasters in Enid, OK and if you want to learn more about Vitruvian, you can go to their FB page or you can find them on IG. And I’m sure they have a website! Yeah, so if you're interested in trying more of their stuff, reach out to them. They may even send you a sample!

HOGAN

Cool! Alright, so like we did in our previous episode, I always have a written review that I do for each book. I will start out by reading my review. This was a 5/5 read for me! I read it several months ago.

[INSERT REVIEW]

BEN

And that's the the review that's on your website shebreathesinink.com—so if you want to read a review for yourself or if I can go there I am not read the book, obviously—that's why we have this podcast, because you read the book and then you tell me all about it! But I remember talking with you about this when you were reading it and just being so—just feeling so angry because of all the stuff put on at a young girl in that era.

HOGAN Yes and it starts so early!

BEN

My goodness. Just everything. Just from the place, like this is your place, this is this is who you shall be— and this is how your life will be. And I just— the anger!

HOGAN

Yeah, and not be able to really do anything about it. The book starts out when she is six and immediately she is just put into this box of this is who you are this is what you are going to be for your family.

At that time the main purpose for a young girl was to make sure that she was desirable enough to be married off to a good family so that she could bring fortune to her own family, so she could bring standing to her own family. So at the age of six, a matchmaker actually comes to their household and appraises Lily.

BEN

At six!

HOGAN

Yeah, at six—and she's looked over by the matchmaker and the matchmaker is pleasantly surprised to find that Lily has the potential to have beautiful feet.

And this is normally the age when girls are starting into the process of footbinding and, you know, which is such a horribly painful thing.

BEN

It’s gruesome.

HOGAN

Yeah, and the matchmaker, when she sees that Lily’s feet have the potential to be like the most perfect lilies is what they're called, she actually suggests that Lily wait another year for binding which isn’t typical but she she says if they were to wait a little bit longer then Lily's feet would be able to be bound in to the most beautiful preferred shape. So when we do get to that point in the story, because it's a huge pivotal point, Lily is taken through the foot binding process with a couple other young women.

And Lisa does not hold back on what they go through and how they break each toe and curl them under— and it's the mother that does this to her a little girl and it's the mother that reassures the little girl the pain is worth it, because in the end you're going to have beautiful feet and this is what is going to make you the most desirable to your husband and this is what it is going to ensure that you will have the best marriage you can get.

BEN

Gosh.

And that makes me wonder, too, because the foot binding thing was considered desirable and it was considered to be something a sign of beauty or a sign of like—

HOGAN

Yeah, desirability

BEN

Yeah, just desirability. And that makes me wonder what the frick were those guys into.

HOGAN

Well and I'm gonna say they do hint at that—

BEN

Holy crap! Yeah, like what was the fetish of the time there?

HOGAN

It was for sure cause we see hints of that, because you know eventually Lily is married off to a young man and because the full the full story of this book is Lily’s whole life. We start with her when she was six years old and we are with her until the very end and the story is kind of told her perspective as if she's already an old woman telling what happened

And she’s thinking back on things and she's remembering, and it's beautiful and heartbreaking. And, I mean, there are moments of joy and happiness too but they really are clouded over by all of the pain that she has to go through — not only the physical pain but also go to the heartbreak. And, you know, we see her with her husband, who isn't necessarily a bad husband for that time, because for sure there are other women that really weren't matched with very nice men who treated them horribly. And Lily’s husband wasn't necessarily bad to her; it was kind of just a, just a so-so marriage.

Yeah and he didn't miss treat her but we do see some other women in the story who very much are mistreated and Lily having to witness that, like you know, because really the whole root of the story is the fact that Lily when she is young, right around the time before she goes through her foot binding, she is actually put into like a contractual relationship with another young girl her age which wasn't really typical either. Usually in this, in this time period , young women when they're a little bit older are paired off with a few friends. So they have friends who are there with them who go through things with them, that when they get married those friends are able to help them get married and prepare for marriage and stuff like that and they kind of keep contact but not really when they get older.

And in Lily;s case she is paired with another young woman named Snowflower and they are paired together as lao-tong, which is translated into “old sames”. Which basically means “best friends for life” — but more than just friends like sisters.

BEN

Ride or die!

HOGAN

And more than just sisters! You know, and we get to see their relationship throughout the years because Lily is a young woman who above all yearns to be loved. In her younger years she wants to be loved by her mother, but she knows that she is not very deserving of love. Or as she is told by their culture, because there are just so many ins and outs of it because I think even for the mothers of that time, they didn't feel like they could fully love their daughters because it was it was just it wasn't like they didn't want to, it was because their daughters when they got married moved into their husbands household. So the whole purpose of when you do have a daughter, you're bringing them up so that they will make good wives so that they will make good caretakers for their mother-in-law.

BEN

Yeah, not for you.

HOGAN

Not for you — for your mother-in-law. And so that mindset, I think, kind of formed (for most women) maybe how they treated their daughters because they knew this isn't a gift I could keep. This is a gift for someone else

BEN

And when you were telling me about the story, that was some thing I thought was interesting was the tension between her mother and her because it was like her mother was obviously restraining towards her. She was holding back towards her.

HOGAN

Yeah, and sometimes—

BEN

Like she didn't want to, she didn't want her to get attached or something.

HOGAN

And sometimes the mother — I can't remember her mother’s name — but sometimes her mother would even show her a harsh kind of love and even at a young age Lily knew and learned that this harsh kind of love is a mother’s true love. And I actually have a quote about that right here!

BEN

Yeah!

HOGAN

So this is around the time in the story where Lily is going through the foot binding process, which is excruciating like excruciating to read, and I just can't even imagine a child going through this— let alone anyone! But like six -year-old and a seven -year-old little girl having to go through this, and it’s like a long process to the break every single bone in the foot and bind it under and make sure it doesn't get infected, and that is something the mother does for the daughter. The mother if she's a good mother — this is what is implied — if she's a good mother she will bind her daughters feet with the most harshness like make sure those bones are broken, make sure those bones are bent under and wrapped up tight even though it hurts and makes her cry. Because if the feet aren’t bound correctly, and they’re not bound with that rigidity, then the child could get infected and die. And there's some type of amount of girls— like what, 2 out of every 10 or something like that, I looked it up beforehand but I’ve forgotten the numbers— but out of all the little girls that went through the foot binding, a certain percentage of them died.

It was a huge thing and little girls would die from it and actually Lily has a cousin that ends up dying from the foot binding because she got infected and her mother wasn't hard, wasn’t— ugh, what’s the word?

BEN

Wasn’t like brutal enough, I guess. Or strong enough.

HOGAN

Yes, yeah. Her mother wasn't strong enough—

BEN

Because you have to be strong anyway to be able to bind them correctly.

HOGAN

Yeah, her mother wasn’t strong enough because she heard her little girl crying and felt bad for her, and didn’t want to hurt her more than she already was. So that little girl ended up dying because her mother wasn't strong enough to make sure every bone was broken the way it should be.

BEN

And she was considered, like, she didn't love her enough. Because of that.

HOGAN

Yeah, kind of. Kind of. It’s not spoken out loud, but yes. So here’s the quote that I have from the book:

“When I knew that I couldn’t suffer another moment of pain, and tears fell on my bloody bindings, my mother spoke softly into my ear, encouraging me to go one more hour, one more day, one more week, reminding me of the rewards I would have if I carried on a little longer. In this way, she taught me how to endure, not just the physical trials of foot binding and childbearing but the more tortuous pain of the heart, mind, and soul.”

BEN

Geez.

HOGAN

Yeah.

BEN

I think it’s interesting that you mentioned earlier— is it the feet that were referred to as lilies?

HOGAN

Mm-hm.

BEN

That’s a really, that’s a brilliant metaphor for an author to name a character after the same process that she’s going through. Because it’s telling of what this character is going to experience in her life.

HOGAN

That’s so true!

BEN

It’s full circle. That’s beautiful. Well done, Lisa See! And heartbreaking at the same time. Geez.

[SOFT LAUGHTER]

HOGAN

Yeah, and that’s true. Their whole thought process is that they want to have the most beautiful, white lilies. That’s what they call their feet because the desired shape and looka that they’re goi9ng for is that fluted, perfectly bound, perfectly shaped, tiny little foot. And the thing that is just so heartbreaking is, in obtaining those feet, the women are so limited. Most women who went through the foot binding process, they never set foot outside of their own houses. They were usually secluded in a room solely for women, where all the women in the household would sit and embroider, and talk, and sing. And they never went outside, and if they did go outside, they were usually accompanied by men or someone who could help steady them— because they could not walk very far. Their poor, little feet couldn't take it, and their legs couldn’t take it because they weren’t used to walking far distances. And in the length of this story, we see Lily not only go through that type of sadness and trial, but because of things that happen in the story there are times where she is forced to have to do more than she can even do.

Later on on the story — I won’t go into huge detail on it — there is this really huge, terrifying thing that happens and some of the women are forced to leave their homes with their families, with their husbands, because they’re fleeing for their lives. And they have to trek up the mountainside.

BEN

I remember you telling me about that.

HOGAN

Even just thinking of it! They had to do this to save their lives, and some of the women—the more refined, well brought up women—had the bound feet, the lily feet, and they can hardly get up the mountain. So some of the women were being carried by their husbands, or carted up the mountain, some women didn’t have someone to help them in all of the chaos, so some of them fell over the side of the mountain and died because they could not traverse the rocky paths very well with their feet.

BEN

So, you said that some of the more well-bred women had their feet bound. Not all women had their feet bound?’

HOGAN

No, at this time period at least...I don’t know if that was different earlier on in history, but yeah, it was not as common for, well, more common women. Usually, if you had servants in the household, your servants wouldn’t have had bound feet. There was a certain term for them that the more well to do women would call them. I think they would call them big-footed sisters or something. It was like this derogatory term that they would use on women who had regular, unbound feet, because the way that society was at that time— even though it was a painful provess— it was just so normal of a thing that they viewed women that didn’t have bound feet as irregular and ugly.

BEN

Gosh, that’s crazy.

HOGAN

They looked at regular sized feet and thought they were ugly and galumphing and huge! And they were happy that they had their small feet because that was what was considered beautiful.

BEN

Thankfully, they no longer do that!

HOGAN

Yes!

BEN

They banned it in, was it like a hundred years ago? Or it was longer than that?

HOGAN

Longer than that. I think maybe it was in the, um, late 1800’s? Right? Thankfully. Cuz if you look up pictures...be warned.

BEN

Yeah, be warned. It’s not pretty.

HOGAN

Yeah, and those poor feet. I’m really glad that’s not a thing anymore and my heart just breaks for all of the women over all the centuries that had to go through that, solely to pursue what they were told and what they thought was beautiful at the time. But I think that’s just typical for every era.

BEN

Well, and that’s the other thing: like, regardless of the culture or the era, everyone still has the same desires, and it’s to be what they are told is beautiful. Because—

HOGAN

To fit into some type of mold.

BEN

If, yeah, if you are told something and that’s how it’s portrayed, your life and your culture is portrayed, no matter where your culture is— whether it’s pop culture or ancient culture, whatever it is— the desire is the same: to fit in and to fit that mold. And to be what everyone else appears to be. And it just shows you that, regardless of whatever time it is, that desire transcends that time. Because we all do that. Like, we all see what’s popular and what’s beautiful, or ugly and what’s considered ugly, and we all have the same need to eb that. Regardless of how much pain it causes us, we will go to extreme lengths to be what we are told we should be. That’s a really sad, sad thing. You mentioned, I love this, you mentioned in the intro about the language of women.

HOGAN

Yeah! That’s another—

BEN

I freaking love this!

HOGAN

This is another part of the story that’s just woven in so beautifully throuighoty the length of Lily;s story. When she is a young girl, she is paired with her lao-tong, Snow Flower. And Snow Flower shows her the secret language of women, which is called nushu, you can look it up and you can see the characters. The differences between the women’s characters opposed to the actual traditional Chinese characters. And they have this beauty to them, and this was the secret language between women that they would pass on from woman to woman, from mother to daughter. So Lily learns this language as a young girl and thorughiut the length of her life, she uses nushu to communicate with Snow Flower— her best friend, her sister— and they have this fan that snow flower gave her as a gift when they very first met, and on this fan they write messages in nushu to each other. And they exchange the fan back and forth between the whole of their lives. So they can open up the fan, and look and see all of the messages they’ve sent each other. They can look and mark different areas of hardship they may have been going through at the time— kinda like a diary or something! And the women’s language, a lot of women in this area used it, and they would embroider characters of nushu on their shoes, on their fans, on their clothes like secretly, putting in their little touches. And the whole purpose of nushu was to show that women, even though they were told they didn’t, women still had voices. And women still had things to express. Because, in this time period, they were illiterate. They were not given any type of education on reading, studying…

BEN

They weren’t treated like people of society. They weren’t allowed to have the normal education that men had.

HOGAN

No, they weren’t. So, men really really looked down on women in that way of— you know, it probably wasnt really a secret that the women had their own language, but the men scoffed at it I’m sure.

BEN

But I love that it was like, for the women, it was like a big F-you to the men. Because they could be in the presence of a man and have a conversation and the man would have no idea what they were talking about. I freaking love that! Because even in the age of ignorance, where a woman isn’t allowed the education of a man, they’re still smarter.

[HOGAN LAUGHS]

BEN

You know, in a way! It’s like, we still know things that you don’t and we still have knowledge.

HOGAN

Yeah, you can’t just tell us we’re not allowed to care about these things. And men were very much seen as scholars and as the only ones that were allowed to study and go to universities and travel the world, and gain knowledge. So women were looked at as if they didn’t even have the minds to comprehend or speak over political things or whatever. So by having nushu, the women were able to express more fully their feelings and their desires, because these women had such a well of deep feeling! Because of all that crap they were having to go through—

BEN

Pain—

HOGAN

So much pain! And so much sadness that they needed to put out into the world, so that’s what nushu accomplished for them. And it’s just exquisite to think on that.

BEN

Yeah, and it’s sad too, because on the flip side, obviosuly this was something that was bred into the culture. Men were allowed to be whatever, and women had to be a certain way. And obviously it’s not like the men just decided that year, “Oh, we’re better than women.” They were bred that way. Which is sad because, you know, a man is able to be whatever he wants, and go wherever he wants, and treat his woman the way he wants. And the woman just has to take it; she has no say in the matter, which is just appalling and disgusting, really. At the same time, men don’t know what true love is. They don’t know what true affection is. I doubt their mothers were affectionate toward them because they knew that little boy is going to grow up and be a man.

HOGAN

Well, the men definitely had this type of pressure and expectation put on them where, with little girls, they were looked at a certain way— “Oh, you’re just another mouth to feed. You’re just another little girl to raise up and give to someone else’s mother”. The boys were looked at as, “You are what’s gonna hold our family up. We’re putting our whole expectation for our line in you.” So I’m sure that was a lot of pressure too. And they were definitely told this is what a good wife is, this is what a good wife will be for you. And you know, thankfully Lily didn’t have a husband that exerted any type of physical dominion over her or anything. And, really, what we see throughout this story is just the juxtaposition between Lily’s place and Snow Flower’s place.

Because Lily came from a more middle class family, and Snow Flower was from a higher up, more wealthy family. And they were matched together as lao-tong because Lily was going to be able to marry up higher due to her pretty, lily feet. And as the story goes on, you realize that maybe Snow Flower isn’t in the best position just because she comes from a wealthy family, a higher up family. You would think that her life would be easier than Lily’s; you would think that her life would be one of less stress and less worry than Lily’s. But, in all reality, it’s the exact opposite. And it takes Lily a little while to realize that. Even though that’s her best friend and they love each other more than anyone— I mean, even throughout the book, Lily says she loves Snow Flower as her lao-tong even more than her husband. Even though that is the case, Lily takes a little while to realize the adversity that Snow Flower is going through. And you know, there’s only so much love and friendship can do for that. In that time especially, because when Lily did see what Snow Flower was having through— because Snow Flower wasn’t married to a very good man, a very good person— and she had to go through some horrible hardships, and Lily just had to witness it and try to be there for her. But really, how much can you be there for someone when that’s just kind of the expectation of your society? That women just go through these things?

BEN

*sigh* Yeah.

HOGAN

I have another quote here. One of my favorite quotes from the book, from Lily:

For my entire life, I longed for love. I knew it was not right for me as a girl, and later as a woman, to want or expect it, but I did. And this unjustified desire has been at the root of every problem I have experienced in my life.

[BEN HEAVY SIGH]

BEN

Geez.

HOGAN

Yeah, so...just a warning.

BEN

I need some coffee after that! Gah.

HOGAN

That’s probably a little telling on what type of story this is. I think I mentioned it in our last episode that I’ve been reading a lot more heavy, sad stories lately. And this one especially, after I finished it, even though it was under 300 pages, I felt like I had gone through a whole lifetime with Lily...because I had. She went through so much and saw so much— and survived so much! And so in the end, when I finished that last page, I was like, “What did I just read?”

[LAUGHTER]

BEN

Well, it’s such a heavy story, it didn’t need to be very long.

HOGAN

Yeah!

BEN

Because it was so full of stuff!

HOGAN

Yeah. Lisa See is for sure one of my favorite authors. She conveys so much depth and beauty in these stories that she writes.

BEN

Beauty in the midst of pain.

HOGAN

Yes!

BEN

This is— It was funny, because when you said we were gonna review this book, we had actually...There’s a movie of Snow Flower and the Secret Fan.

[LAUGHS]

BEN

It’s really not like the book!

HOGAN

No, and I got really excited.

BEN

We weren’t going to talk too much about it, but…

HOGAN

I got so excited when I saw that there was a movie! And very quickly realized after I started it that this is nothing like the book, for some reason.

BEN

There were a lot of liberties taken.

HOGAN

Oh, so many. And they tried to really modernize it, and so...just a warning there if you want to see the movie. Watch it if you want to, but just know that it does not portray the magnitude and the absolute beauty—

BEN

Yeah, it doesn’t— it almost doesnt feel like the same story.

HOGAN

No, it really doesn’t. They definitely tried to modernize it, and they made it where it has two different timelines. So they had present day, a relationship between a girl and her friend, and then they would go back into the past and see the relationship between Lily and Snow Flower. And it felt really weird because that wasn’t in the book at all!

BEN

And for me, I didn’t read the book, obviously, and I watched the movie and it felt disjointed. A little bit.

HOGAN

Yeah, it felt weird, because it didn’t need that. The original story, Lily and Snow Flowers lives and they how they intertwine and all the hardship they go through, that doesn’t need another timeline. They don’t need to be treated as flashbacks. And that’s what they did , in the movie. They were treated more like flashbacks to an earlier time.

BEN

Yeah, they weren’t even the focus of the actual movie.

HOGAN

And I feel like they deserved to be the full focus of the movie! Because it’s so moving and touching, why wouldn't the movie want to show that?

[LAUGHTER]

HOGAN

So, just know that if you do watch the movie.

BEN

Read the book first, because if you think that I’ll just watch the movie, and then I’ll know— No, you won’t get the experience. You’ll get almost a different story. So if you do want to read the book, go for it! If you want to watch the movie, at least read the book first— or at least like—

HOGAN

Or listen to the audiobook! Lisa See has some really great audio books out there. I’ve listened to one of her other novels.

BEN

Audiobooks are my jam!

HOGAN

And the audiobooks, the narrators are really good for her work! So if you have the time, please read it! And know that you’re going to go through this tumultuous journey, but in the end you’re going to feel so so much. And it’s gonna be heavy, but I for one was glad that I went through that journey with Lily and Snow Flower because it just gives you this whole new perspective of what women have had to endure. And how they’re made all the more stronger because of it. And even if they didn’t have happy stories or happy lives, they still lived lives of strength and beauty, and that can…

BEN

And they still found purpose, even in the middle of all that.

HOGAN

And, you know, that can be then translated for us to really take some determination and uplifting from that

BEN

Yeah, yeah. And the other thing we want to do through this podcast, is we want to highlight stories but we also want to highlight authors. And one of the things that was so great is just the style that Lisa See tells the story through.

HOGAN

Yes! She conveys so much with such a beautiful simplicity, and that is hard for a lot of people to do!

BEN

In 300 pages!

HOGAN

yeah, she does amazing. And I’ve read a few other of her works this past years because, like I said, she’s now one of my favorite authors. I think she’s probably the author that I read the most.

BEN

I think so. I remember you talking about her a lot! And just following her on Instagram and everything.

HOGAN

Yeah, she’s really kind on Instagram. She’ll actually respond when you tag her.

BEN

Yeah, she responded to you!

HOGAN

Yeah, she’s responded to me a couple of times when I’ve tagged her, because I definitely have been putting all kinds of love on her stories this past year. So definitely go follow her and go follow her work! She has several other books out. They’re all standalones from what I understand. Another really good one that I read is The Tea Girl of Hummingbird Lane. And I recently got Shanghai Girls which I still need to read...and that may be a future episode! We may be having to do a few Lisa See books because they’re just beautiful.

BEN

Yeah, fantastic!

HOGAN

Thank you guys so much for tuning in today and listening to our discussion on Snow Flower and the Secret Fan! Do you have anything more you want to say more about coffee?

BEN

Yeah! Just wanna give another shout out to Vitruvian Coffee Roasters here in Enid! This Ethiopia Guji is very very tasty. I’ve been sipping on it throughout the whole episode, obviously.

HOGAN

The perfect thing to be drinking with your book!

BEN

Very good. If you guys want to reach out to them, feel free. You can find them on Facebook and Instagram. If you have questions about coffee, feel free to reach out to us! We are going to be doing different brew methods. Our first episode, we did Chemex and that was really good. And today we did V60, which is very similar to a Chemex brew method just a little different, smaller, a little bit more intimate of a brew. So if you have questions about things, you can always reach out to us. If you want to go to Hogan’s website to see her reviews: shebreathesinink.com. You can also follow her on Instagram @shebreathesinink. And if you want to follow me for coffee stuff, you can follow me on Instagram @ben_burleigh and also on TikTok, to find more coffee tutorials and stuff like that.

HOGAN

Awesome! Yeah, and we just want to give a little reminder to make sure to follow us and subscribe on Spotify, and we are also now available on Google Podcasts, Apple Podcast. We’re going to be available on most of the streaming apps!

BEN

Pretty much anywhere you can listen to podcasts!

HOGAN

Yeah! So make sure to subscribe, that way you know when we have our next one out. We’re going to be doing reviews every Thursday, of different books with different coffees, and we really appreciate you guys following along!

BEN

So, until next week, I am Ben the Barista—

HOGAN

And I’m Hogan the bookworm!

BEN

And we will see you soon on Pages and Pours.

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