Ep. 1: What Dreams May Come

In our very first episode, we cover one of my favorite stories. This book is a beautiful example of true love and what happens when soulmates are separated by death. Ben has also curated a perfect coffee provided by Vitruvian Coffee Roasters to go with today's book -- so settle in and get cozy with us, and let's discuss this amazing novel!

Just a disclaimer: Our audio gets 100% better in Episode 2.

TW for death of a loved one and suicide.

LISTEN HERE

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Note: The following transcript was created using both a dictation software and hand-typed transcription in an attempt to fully capture everything that was said in this episode of Pages and Pours. Please be aware that there may be some errors because of this! Of course, the full experience of any podcast is best heard in its original audio form, so please make sure to give that a listen if you’re able. But if not, we hope that this transcription still conveys the emotion and fun that went into recording this episode for you! Thank you and enjoy.

[INTRO, Hogan speaking]

What would you do if the person you love most in this world was shrouded in an impenetrable wall of sorrow? If everything you did to reach them, to tell them that everything was okay, could never get through to them?

And what if you realized the reason that you couldn't touch them or comfort them was simply because... you were dead?

[INTRO JAZZ MUSIC]

HOGAN

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Pages and Pours! I am Hogan the bookworm—

BEN

And I am Ben the barista!

HOGAN

Today, we're going to be reviewing and talking about the book “What Dreams May Come” by Richard Matheson. I would classify this book as probably a supernatural drama. It definitely is a transformative story where the character is against some incredible odds.

BEN

To go along with today’s story, we have a special coffee that we have selected. I felt that the story is very deep—it's very whimsical but it's also very very dark and so what I wanted to do is find a coffee that kind of fit that profile. Something that was flavorful but had some depth to it. And so the coffee we're drinking today is from the Len khong region, and the flavor notes on this coffee are brown sugar, apricot, lemon, and lime—and dark chocolate. This is very unusual for a Sumatra, as usually people associate Sumatra with more earthy, a lot of times a more tobacco-ey profile or usually a more deep, rich flavor type of thing. But this one has some surprising zest which compliments the whimsical and dark aspects of the coffee.

I brewed this on a Chemex and this is a 16 to 1 ratio of water to coffee. I started a small batch of 16 ounces, which is smaller than normal for a Chemex. I drink it in about 8 ounces, so I get two servings out of this. I definitely get the dark chocolate— I mean less evident, that's the underlying tone to aftertaste. I do get the zest from lemon, and not so much apricot. It’s kind of raison-y. It's really flavorful and fits really well with this story that we have today.

HOGAN

Awesome!

BEN

So, we’re going to raise a glass to you all and we're going to have some coffee! And now Hogan is going to give us a little insight into her thoughts on this story. Cheers!

HOGAN

Yeah, awesome. Now that we have our coffee and we’re all settled in, I'm going to be talking about one of my absolute favorite stories ever. This is actually a movie that I loved when I was younger! Again, it's called What Dreams May Come.

BEN

How old were you when you watched this?

HOGAN

Um, probably like, maybe six?

[LAUGHTER]

HOGAN

Between six and eight.

BEN

A little morbid for a six year old.

[LAUGHTER]

HOGAN

Yeah, looking back on it, it was a pretty dark preference for a 6 year old! I was pretty young when I first watched it, and I actually haven’t heard of a lot of people that know this movie or have heard of it, or seen it. It’s actually an old Robin Williams movie—and you know we all love Robin Williams.

BEN

Mm-hm. You actually introduced me to this move and this story. To preface, I have not read the book, but I have seen the movie.

HOGAN

Yeah, yeah. So he has a good understanding of the storyline. And even the movie—which all readers know, usually movie adaptations are nowhere near as good as the book—but I am going to say that this is one of the very few times that I think the movie is right on par with the book. Maybe even better in some parts? Only because it’s Robin Williams, though.

BEN

Yeah.

HOGAN

And he, uh, I mean, Robin Williams was not just a funny guy. He actually had, I think, a lot of capacity for depth and, you know, poignant stories.

BEN

Very emotional.

HOGAN

Yeah, this one especially has always been one of my absolute favorites since I was little, and I introduced it to Ben when we got together. And then I realized a few years ago that this was actually a book and that the movie was based off the book! By Richard Matheson. Which Richard Mathson has written a lot of really well-known stories that a lot of us have at least heard of, like I am Legend...also wrote that—What was that time travel one with Christopher Reeves?

BEN

Oh my gosh, I know exactly what you’re talking about…

HOGAN

In Time? Or Lost in Time?

BEN

Lost in Time, Through Time...Something like that.

HOGAN

Yeah, yeah. There’s another book that they made into a movie that has Christopher Reeves as the main person, and that one’s really good too! He’s really, really good at writing poignant, thought provoking stories.

BEN

And I think his writing is symbolic of the human condition as far as diving into deep into emotion and very, very deep thought-provoking situations. And most of the characters in these, they travel through time or they travel through something heavy—But it’s a very deep exploration of the human condition, the human heart and human emotions.

HOGAN

Yeah, the characters always go on a journey and come out thru the other side very changed.

BEN

Which is very telling for an author. I think that’s someone who has either a lot of pain in their life or a lot of experience with that. Sometime you read people like that and you can’t tell if they’re really good at what they do, or if they’re silently wanting people to know that they need help.

[LAUGHTER]

BEN

Makes you wonder!

HOGAN

In the case of Richard Matheson, he for sure writes some dark, touching stories. So he may be crying out for help...but I just love his stories. So, I hope he keeps writing them. If he’s still alive? I don’t know.

BEN

Probably should look that up.

HOGAN

Yeah, I probably should have looked that up beforehand

[LAUGHS]

HOGAN

His books have been around for a while. Um, like I am Legend was written in the—

BEN

It was like in the 50’s, wasn’t it?

HOGAN

I think it was in the 50’s or— It was in an era where you would not think a vampire story...Cuz that’s the thing—this is a whole tangent, and I’ll get off of it really quickly—but I am Legend is not a zombie story, which that is the impression that I got when I watched the movie.

BEN

The movie was horrible.

HOGAN

I am Legend the book is a vampire story! And it was written in either the 50’s or 60’s. So it was really thought-provoking for that time! So anyway…

BEN

That movie was— I didn’t know it was a book, I just thought it was a movie and I was like, this movie by itself is...bleh.

HOGAN

The book was really, really great. Anyway, we’re not talking about that book today. Maybe I will on another episode, but What Dreams May Come is, well, for me it is a 5 star read. 5 out of 5. And it actually stays really close—or the movie sticks really close to the book, which I really liked. So I recently read it after realizing that it was a book and finally getting my hands on it, so I have written a review for it, and the way that we are planning to do most of our episodes is I will start out with the written review, or at least a concise wrapping-up of what I wrote in myu review, and then Ben and I will talk about a little bit more. And if there are any things that come up later on that are spoilers, I’ll let you know beforehand. This review right here is not going to have spoilers so…

You know when a story just hits you in the deep, tender part of your heart? When you relate with a character, feel for them so genuinely, that you experience everything with them as they experience it in the book?

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

This is that book for me.

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

Actually, I first fell in love with 𝘞𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘋𝘳𝘦𝘢𝘮𝘴 𝘔𝘢𝘺 𝘊𝘰𝘮𝘦 when I watched the movie adaptation years and years ago. I remember being very young—under ten—and feeling such a surge of emotion for this story that I couldn’t explain. I just loved it.

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

Which is interesting, now that I think of it, because this is a depressing, somewhat dark story. I guess I’ve always had a streak of melancholy, even back then.

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

This is a story about Chris. And Annie. Or wait, more like Chris and His Annie. No separation between the two. Because one cannot be without the other; they’re so beautiful in love, so genuinely connected, that life is grey and colorless without the other near.

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

Even Heaven is hard to enjoy when one is separated from the other.

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

But that’s exactly what happens. In one tragic accident, their lives are changed—and Chris finds himself separated from Ann by death. Though he is the one that has passed through the veil of life into limbo, he cannot make himself pass on. He can’t just leave his Annie, not when he feels her grief so palpably, even through their veil of separation.

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

And so begins Chris’s afterlife: he will do anything to remain with the love of his life, even if that means moving Heaven (or Hell) for her.

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

This is less a review than it is a suggestion. Read this book or watch this movie if you’re moved by endless love, by romance that transcends everything—even death.

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

Now I’m going to go watch the movie and cry some more, probably after talking about this!

BEN

Yes!

HOGAN

So that was my very concise review of it that I actually shared on my book blog a few months ago. When I write reviews, I really don't like to spoil them, I don’t like to really just lay everything out there that happens, because I feel like books are things that must be experienced. And the thing that’s beautiful about books is everyone experiences them differently.

BEN

And if you review a book, it’s to entice people to want to read it. So I think you do a very good job of that.

HOGAN

Thank you. I really want people to read this book because, like I just read in my review, it's this beautiful, beautiful love story and, I mean, that’s what touched me even when I was so young. When i watched it, I remember crying and feeling like, “I want a love like that”. That’s what you end up coming out with in the end when you finish the story. You think to yourself, “Not everyone has a love like that. But Chris and Annie do.” And they went thru a beautiful journey together throughout that book. I mean, it’s mainy Chris. It’s him doing everything in his power, realizing that Heaven isn't enough. Not if he can't have Annie right there with him. And that just hits you right in the heart! And even right now—

BEN

Are you going to cry?

HOGAN

Yeah! Looking at you, I’m about to—You’re tearing up too!

[LAUGHS]

BEN

Aww.

HOGAN

Mmhm. But yuou know, it makes me— It made me relly feel some deep things so…

[BEN TAKES SIP]

BEN

This coffee is really good.

HOGAN

Mmhm. Yeah, coffee.

BEN

So good. So where can they find your book reviews?

HOGAN

So, my book reviews are posted on my usually on my IG, as well as on my book blog. My Instagram is @shebreathesinink and I’ll leave that in the description also. And if you go find me there, then you can click on the link in my bio and you can go see my fully written reviews! But yeah, I have a bookstagram, as they call it, and that’s where I like to go post all kinds of books stuff, book related topics. I love to post really pretty pictures of books because they’re just an aesthetic all their own! I do the reviews, and now that we’re doing this podcast, I’m going to be a lot more outward with my review and really sharing with you guys what genres I’m going through. I love exploring all kinds of genres! When I was younger, my preference was more fantasy, adventure, some sci-fi. But now that I’ve gotten older, I still love all of those and always will, but now that I am older I try to explore all kinds of stuff. I will every so often pick up one of the hypoed, loved books that are trending. Which is funny because I have found that most books that are the trending, overly hyped novels I normally don't love as much as everyone else claims to love them.

BEN

Especially thrillers.

HOGAN

Yeah, thrillers are kind of usually a let down. Only because I’m over here wanting something to really thrill me and rally surprise me, and take me off guard, but I really don't find that very often in thrillers. So if you have a good thriller suggestion, please let me know! Thriller or suspense or horror. Because I’ve been really trying to delve into those lately and I really haven't come across any that have really punched me in the gut yet— which I would love to have happen. But yeah, thrillers have been really big for me lately, suspense…

BEN

We want it all!

HOGAN

Yeah, we want it all. And I mean, like, this book What Dreams May Come, this genre...I really wouldn't know where to put it because it’s not a romance…

BEN

No, but it is a love story.

HOGAN

It’s a love story! But it’s not the cliche—

BEN

Psychological.

HOGAN

Yes, it’s psychological. It’s like a journey for the character and for the reader, and it’s very thought-provoking. And if you love supernatural, afterlife, like moral dilemmas, then please read this book! And let me know what you think about it, and yeah. I will say that, before you read this book, that there is a trigger warning for suicide. And all things kind of dealing with that, so that can be kind of tough. But the way that it winds into the book, I thought was really beautiful. Just know that is in there.

BEN

So, for you, this book dealing—of course, you saw it when you were younger and then you got into it again when you found out it was actually a book. How did these characters stand out to you? What were some of the principle traits of the characters that really drew you in when you were reading through this book? You talk about being a love story.

HOGAN

Well, just the fact that it’s very evident—and they touch on this topic more in the story—it’s evident that Chris and Annie were made for each other. And are literal soulmates. The way that they were in life together, they got into that in the book even. Because they have children, but even their children recognize that the love our parents have for each other is even above the love they have for us. Which is how I think love should be between, you know, spouses should be. I think they should come first. And I think that was exhibited just tremendously well in both the movie and the book.

Because Chris—and this happens first off in the book, so this isn't really a spoiler—when Chjrsit dies, he is just...It takes him a while to realize that he’s died. Because he’s immediately with Annie, and it takes him a bit to realize why she’s so sad, and why she’s so dark and just lonely. Cuz he’s like, “I’m right here, I’m right here!” but she can't see him. And he’s stuck in limbo for a while because of that, cuz he cant leave her. And then eventually a spirit guide comes and drags him to heaven, basically, and Chris is like, “Why did you take me away from her? Why’d you do that? Because I want to be there with her. I can’t leave her. I can’t leave Annie'' Like that is his whole thought process. Even though he’s dead, and in heaven, he still can't be away from Annie. Like she is his sole concern, because he knows if I’m feeling the way I am right now, what is Annie feeling without me? And so…

BEN

Gosh, I think that’s like...Some of the saddest, most touching stories are the ones about people that have died and don’t realize it. Or they’ve died, and they have to figure out, “What do I do? How do I figure out…” You know, they have to process the fact that they are dead. There’s something really poignant about that because for us, we’re alive watching this movie of someone who is dead trying to process it and that’s such a difficult thing to do because, you know, we’ve all had people that have died or passed away, and you put yourself in that position. We have to work through the idea of losing someone, we have to cope with the fact that they’re gone and it makes you wonder on the flip side they have to cope with the fact that they are gone.

HOGAN

Yeah, yeah.

BEN

And it's such a sad thing, and so for a storyteller to try to tackle that and do it well.

HOGAN

Yeah, because I think that is something that we all kind of wonder about. Because you know, people try to say to you that once they’ve passed on, “you don’t have to worry about them, they’re not missing you” or whatever. But you know, I think there is that loss there for them as well. And the beauty is in knowing that that loss isn't permanent. But because of things that happen in the book, that was more, like with Chris—even if it wasn't gonna be a permanent thing, that he wasn't going to be separated from Annie for eternity, even if that weren't the case— however little time he was separated from her was too much. That’s the thing that he was trying to convey to the other heavenly whoever was around him, the spirit guide or whoever. “I don’t care that it’s not permanent, right now I need her.”

BEN

That’s how soulmates roll. Two days apart is three days too long.

HOGAN

Right?? Yeah, and I mean, even at a young age that really resonated with me. So, I think that just goes to show how deeply I wanted a love like that. I wanted a love that would traverse whatever he had to—whatever he had to get through.

BEN

And I hope you find that someday.

[LAUGHTER]

HOGAN

Aw, yeah? Thanks. (sarcastic) No, I have found it!

BEN

Oh, yeah.

HOGAN

Yeah I remember? We’re married?

BEN

Well, you know…

HOGAN

We’re soulmates!

BEN

Would I really go through HEAVEN…

HOGAN

Whatever!

BEN

Nah, I’m just kidding. So, what are some of the places that he goes to or through? What’s his journey like, in a nutshell?

HOGAN

His, uh, his journey is one of, first, finding answers. Because when he gets to heaven—which, this is kind of a spoiler. If you don't want to know the full extent of the story, pause here.

BEN

Possible spoilers.

HOGAN

Possible spoilers. I’m not gonna go hardcore on the spoilers at all, but if you want to be totally—

BEN

If you want to fully experience the journey, then maybe you might want to pause. Go read the book, or see the movie.

HOGAN

Yeah, if we’ve lured you in enough that you want to see the story, go see it first and the come back and listen to the rest. And then talk with me about how you felt about it!

BEN

If you’ve already read the book, we’d love to know your thoughts too.

HOGAN

Yeah, because I don’t know anyone else who’s read this book.

BEN

Really? Wow.

HOGAN

Yeah, even when I posted on my Instagram about it, and I have tons of other readers on there. No one else had heard of this book or read it. And so I’m trying to get the word out there. I love this book!

BEN Cool, okay.

HOGAN

When Chris first gets to heaven, after being torn away from Annie basically, and then he realizes, “I need to be back with her”, he’s kind of told, well, “Nothing we can really do for ya, fella”. And he refuses to believe that. He refuses to accept that, and he goes on this journey of trying to find answers, to see how he could be back with Annie.

And based on some things that end up happening, that becomes a lot harder than him just say leaving Heaven and going back into limbo. Because he was in limbo for a while, like before he went to heaven. He was stuck in this in between place, where he was there in his home but he really wasn't. And he was seeing—and like time wasn’t a thing for him, so who knows how long he was actually there experiencing Annie’s sadness and he was sometimes seeing the children and seeing their sadness. He’d hear them talking.

And the children knew that mom and dad were soulmates. Their love was nothing that we ever saw before, and the fact that this has happened, the fact that Dad is gone, is just tragic. Even the children understood that.

Chris was there witnessing that and unable to be a part of it. And after he gets to heaven, he would rather have been there at least because he was trying to see if there was a way he could contact Annie. But, it just wasn’t really able to happen. Annie at one point tries to get a psychic to come in—I don’t know if I told you that when I was reading it?

BEN

I don’t know? That didn’t happen in the movie, did it?

HOGAN

No. No, I don’t think it did.

BEN

Okay.

HOGAN

No, but I think she was kind of against it, if I remember correctly. But like the psychic, it ended up being a thing that Chris realized, even though he was trying to communicate with Annie, she wasn't fully—like, it wasn’t fully him that she was able to communicate with. Does that make sense?

BEN

Yeah, yeah.

HOGAN

So, it’s like there was that barrier that he really couldn’t get across. And after being in heaven and realizing that he would rather be there with her and to have tried to get through that way, but that was taken from him. So he had to go through so much to, to truly trek through countless...crap that I won’t say right here.

[BEN CHUCKLES]

He went through the ringer to get back to Annie. And, in the end, there is a moment where you just feel so deeply for him, because after he goes thru everything and he traverses—I don’t know, I can’t even put into words—this countless just terror, and pain, and affliction, he goes thru to get to Annie, and he finds her. And you have this moment in the book where you think, “Is he too late?”

BEN

Hm. (sad)

HOGAN

Did he go through al; that and then still can’t have her? And he thinks that too when he comes to that, and he makes this decision to himself, “It was still worth it.”

BEN

God. (laughs)

HOGAN

(laughs) I would still do it! And even if I am essentially locked in hell, and unable to get out of it, I would rather be with her in hell than not with her at all. And that’s all I’ll say, I won’t say anymore. That’s kind of a spoiler but…

BEN

It’s a beautiful, beautiful story, but it’s also like a nightmare.

HOGAN

Yeah. (laughing)

BEN

Like, I can’t even imagine.

HOGAN

Yeah, and the movie does really good—

BEN

It’s like a bad dream!

HOGAN

—the movie does really well at encompassing that. Now the movie did take some liberties with some things.

BEN

Sure.

HOGAN

Just to add in more emotion that really wasn’t fully necessary. But it translated well in the movie. And for the most part, the movie sticks really well to the book, just know that there are things that are different . So either you read the book, then you watch the movie, there are gonna be some differences. Or vice versa. There are gonna be things in the movie that didn;’t happen in the book, but I still love both equally.

BEN

Well, and I think the movie gives a little bit of a different, deeper emotional experience because it’s Robin Williams.

HOGAN

Yes! And they know how to tug on our heart strings with Robin Williams, I’m telling you!

BEN

Well, and just, you know. His life and later the things he went through and happened to him.

HOGAN Yeah.

BEN

You know—

HOGAN

It hits a little differently.

BEN

It does.

HOGAN

Yeah, so just a warning there. If you go in and watch the movie—

BEN

(laughs) Be prepared! if you want the full experience, read the book first. And then go watch the movie. If you’re like some of us, and you don't necessarily have the capabilities to sit down and read the book, or you are—you want to read the book but it’s not something you’re able to fully devote the attention and time to it, watch the movie. It’s really, really good. That;s what I did: I watched the movie. And then, of course, Hogan tells me everything about the book. So I’ve basically read the book already.

HOGAN

You’re welcome.

BEN

But either way, it’s a good experience. But if you want the full experience with backstory and everything, read the book then watch the movie. Then let us know what you think! Cuz we’d love to hear from you!

HOGAN

Yeah, I’d love to hear what you thought.

BEN

So, was there anything else you’d love to say about the author, the writing style, or just the story in general? I think that’s one thing you’re really good at in your reviews—Even if there’s a story you didn't really like, you are still very creditable toward the author. Um, just because a story doesn't hit you, doesn’t mean it’s a bad author.

HOGAN

No, never!

BEN

Authors have the ability to even with certain things—of course, not in this case—but even with certain stories, even if they miss the mark, they’re still doing what they’re good at.

HOGAN

And that’s something that I will like, you know, in future episodes I will likely tackle some books that I didn’t really love. But I will always try to remind people that even if that book wasn’t for me, that book is still meant for someone else. And I still give all the credit to the author, because writing a book is very hard.

BEN

Yeah. You would know!

HOGAN

I’ve done it!

BEN

You’re doing it right now!

HOGAN

Yeah, so I know how hard it is. And I know all the care and work that goes into putting these stories together and creating these characters, so I am never going to just absolutely hate on a book, even if I didn’t love it.

BEN

Unless it’s just like obvious—

HOGAN & BEN

Trash.

[LAUGHTER]

BEN

Cuz there have been some authors that have written some books that like they have multiple books. and you read one and it was fantastic. And you read another one and it was just not…

HOGAN

Like what happened?

BEN

Yeah, it was like what the heck? They’re still a good author. They wrote that book, and that’s amazing. And so, um, that's one thing we do want to talk about too. Writing styles, the way that the author tells the story, the way they use language. Or the way they use metaphors. That’s big for us too, because we’re both writers and we have our own styles.

HOGAN

And everyone has their own style, and that’s the beauty in it. And again, some stories are not meant for some people. And some stories, like this one—What Dreams May Come was obviously meant very much for me. And I realised that even at a young age, and it still hits me even right now talking I’ve teared up a couple times during this episode because I love this story so much! But you may read it and you may not love it. And that’s okay! Because that’s the beauty of books.

BEN

Also, be prepared too. If you have, if there are triggers for you—

HOGAN Yeah, if you’ve lost loved ones.

BEN

Take your time and if you are not ready to read it, don’t read it.

HOGAN

That’s okay, yeah. This is a heavier read for sure. And not all of our reviews are gonna be that way. I will try to add in some light reads too, some happy reads. I have been reading a lot of emotional stuff this past year, I will say!

[LAUGHTER]

HOGAN

But I don’t just read the dark and heavy. So keep posted, because I will be—

BEN

We’ll be talking about all kinds of books.

HOGAN

All kinds! And if you have suggestions for things that you would like me to read, let me know. I would like to see what you guys are reading.

BEN

She reads about 85 words per second, so…

[LAUGHTER]

BEN

Very fast.

HOGAN

Yeah. (laughs) I’m on Goodreads, so if you want to follow me on Goodreads. Hogan Burleigh, I think is just what it’s under. I love tracking books, I love following other people to see what they;re reading. I just think that reading is a whole way of life. And, you know, thank you for tuning in today! I hope you enjoyed it. I definitely know we’re gonna have all kinds of reviews coming, all kinds of different books coming. So we really appreciate you taking the time to listen.

BEN

And also, we do want to say that, in regards to the coffee, we will be featuring a coffee every episode. We’ll be talking about different brew styles, anything from Chemex, to French Press, to espresso, we’ll be doing it. So if you’re interested in knowing more about coffee, we will include where our coffees are from and the notes on how we’re brewing it. Today’s coffee is from Vitruvian Coffee Roasters in Enid, OK. We definitely encourage you to go check them out! You can find them on Instagram. You can go to Facebook, and if you want to special order something contact them and they can send it to you. We definitely want to give a shout out to them.

If you want to see more about coffee in general, you can also follow me on TikTok or on Instagram. It’s @ben_burleigh. I do a lot of tutorials and stuff on coffee as well, so feel free to follow there.

Thank you guys so much for listening! We will see you soon on another coffee and book review and Pages and Pours.

[JAZZY OUTRO MUSIC]